"This is the generation of the great LEVIATHAN, or rather, to speak more reverently of that mortal god, to which we own under the immortal God, our peace and defense." -Thomas Hobbes: Leviathan
The following is a facebook conversation which I had with a self-declared gay person, who used to be a Christian but have since left his church, which I believe is one of those fundy evangelical types. (God save us from them!) I thought that it might be instructive and provocative, would like to seek your comments. 🙂
Facebook status of friend:
“Shit. Shitty shit shit. Why did I had to re-read the Book of Revelation today? Now I am scared. Don’t judge me, but I am brought up in this.”
Subsequent Comment on Status by him:
i believe in the bible. Apparently, there are SEVEN seals. When the sixth seal is open, there will be violent earthquakes everywhere. Sun will turn black. Moon will turn red. This will be the start of more disasters that is to come. Stars w…ill fall from the sky. Mountains and islands will be ripped apart.
It will take years. But we could be reaching the seventh seal in the near future. The seventh seal…The greatest even will be a HUGE STAR crashing down on earth called “Wormwood”. Keep a lookout for that name. Because when we hear that name in the news, it is time to panic.
Then we’ll enter the next phase of destruction. I will not elaborate here. But seriously, I am scared. I know many will call me superstitious whore. But I don’t care. I am just scared.
Me: If you didn’t care, you wouldn’t be scared… but it is precisely because you do care that’s why you’re scared… why not care a bit more and try to read it properly?
Friend: …there are so many doctrines out there now. I don’t even know which is false or true anymore. It is said there will be any false prophets in the end-times. Which should I believe? I don’t know anymore. I feel like crying to God at night…Begging Him to tell me the answer. I need answers. NOT signs…
Me: “I need answers. NOT signs…” Ask, and you shall receive. 😛
Friend: Machina, can i enter heaven with my boyfriend if we start to worship Him and praise Him and still have sex with each other? And I still continuing my live webcam shows? Must I give up anything to fulfill God’s pre-requisites to enter that holy place? The bible doesnt teach me that. Except that those who are sexually immoral will not be able to enter. Am I?
Me: I believe that even Hitler can enter Heaven. I have no right to set any limits to the lovingkindness of God which has appeared in Jesus Christ. And it is my hope and prayer that all of Hell will be empty on the Last Day.
So, if you’re asking… who can and cannot enter heaven, what are the possibilities of God’s grace, my answer must be that it is limitless and without boundaries. There are no pre-requisites to entering Heaven, that’s what grace means.
Friend: Do you know what will crush me inside out? That I worship Him and yet still love my partner. But then…On that day when the groom comes to take His bride, I will be one of them brides who has not made herself ready…
Me: *Shrug*, we are commanded to love our neighbour and all mankind, those that mean therefore we are all to be excluded?
Friend: Dom, so what you mean is that we are all equal regardless of sexual orientation…? I have yet to reconcile this part…I cannot do it…ARGHHH!!!!
Ok, I think perhaps I will start going to church and bring my partner along. And we’ll see what happens. I will continue to love both Him and him. And if God forsakes us during the end of time, then I guess…He doesn’t accept our relationship. But for now…I will try. Try to love both entities as if it were nothing wrong.
That is the best I can do. Although I would want HIM to give me answers before I waste my time.
Me: Hahaha… I don’t believe in the existence of straight people, and I believe that heterosexuality is a sin. We are commanded to love a particular person, our spouse, not an entire group of people! (Defined by gender or otherwise). Straight people are just as sinful as gay people, because they love whole groups of people of the opposite sex, instead of one person.
The only difference that gay people are is that they love whole groups of peoples of their own sex. This is my primary trouble with “sexual orientation” thinking.
Sigh… but he already has [given an answer]. It is called the Holy Scriptures. You said you didn’t want signs from God, but answers, but how else do he communicate except through signs, through the symbols and signs of the Scriptures? The one goes with the other. God speaks through the Scriptures, and it is there that you shall find the answers. There is no “direct” conversation which he can have with you, and even if he did, he will have to communicate through signs which you reject anyway…
Friend: Dom, have you ever considered that the scriptures have been butchered by strict religious christians to make it sound like God condemns gay people and what not. And the scriptures have also been butchered by gay-friendly people to make it sound like God embraces simply everyone? Scriptures are adulterated. Adulterated to satisfy different parties. Making them believe what they want to believe. This is why I don’t know anything anymore.
I have been to many churches of different denominations and thinkings. So many different ways and methods of giving the sermons. Some talk about LOVE. Some talk about PUNISHMENTS. Some talk about EMBRACING each other. Some WARNS us of our actions. So how do we put it all together if they don’t even get along with each other?
Me: I agree with you thoroughly that the Scriptures have been used by various factions to justify their own party lines and sects. That different groups of people will interpret the Scriptures to suit their own sect or needs.
I’ve often been very pained by the denominationalism and public split of the Church.
But look at it this way. There are many different theories about love. Some say its a feeling, some say its something which you do. Some say love is caring for others without self-interest, and others say that it is self-involving and possessive.
But does the different concepts of love stop you from exploring and pursuing it? Of course not. Its one of the most valuable things of life, though there is much confusion about it, you don’t stop trying to understand and look for it.
It is the same with Christ and His Church. Yes, there is conflict, confusion and differences, but Christ is someone worth grasping, don’t let it discourage you from pursuing it.
Even if you don’t trust much in Singapore churches or theology (I don’t think much of them anyway), I hope that I have at least proven myself to be objective and willing to be clear about such things. If you are willing, we can meet up and discuss this. I do often change my mind myself, whenver I read new stuff or something, thus, I am always submitting my mind to the Scriptures and to God, and not rigidly holding on to my own opinion.